Academics frequently publish chats, so I thought I would follow suit.
did you see michael foot died today?
i did
heroic principled hero or harbinger of doom?
goes to show how far the labour party have moved to the right that he's now being described as a left winger
his left wing extremism has been blamed for the unelectability of a left wing govt in britain ever again
the current unelectability of a left wing government has more to do with the alienation that has come from thatcher's individualism and the atomisation of society more than anything else
and the major trade unions covering the backs of the labour shifting as far to the right on most issues as the tories
i dont know that thatcher necessarily created that
the sense of social alienation seems to me to be mostly brought about by judgement
judgement distinguishes people
for one thing
puts people into sets
in what sense?
these people are criminals, these people are black, these people are white, these people are heterosexual, these people are royalty, these people are sporty, these people are mentally unbalanced... blah blah
us and them
make people afraid and ashamed
the destruction of manufacturing industry has undoubtably reduced the ability of the left to organise as it has traditionally done since the dawn of the labour movement and has to be the major driving force behind this atomisation
people were descriminated against for whatever reason before thatcher
trying to be whatever the incidental norm of good is in the culture
exactly
i think thatcherism relies heavily on it
though those judgemental sentiments were exploited by her government admitedly
that's true, though it's fairly incidental compared to the restructuring of the economy into segments that were harder for the unions to organise
the idea of aspirationalism is itself so closely tied to the valuing of particular and contingent values attached to particular human behaviour
this was also a significant factor
the biggest victory thatcher had was over the miners, not by introducing things like section 28
hmm i dunno
they were both massive
and related
it relied on a lot of rich southern people not giving a shit about poor northern people
which i think resulted from a perceived 'otherness'
like miniature nationalism
regionalism
you might say
the things people say about the unions round bucks
unions are a wonderful thing
undoubtably there was an element of that
you only have to look at where tories get elected to see it's concentrated in teh south
right wing politics doesnt erase class but it somewhat disguises it
definitel
y
people in the south think of themselves as middle class
they sneer on the north
it derides anything vaguely left-wing as 'class war' when they go and carry out the most virulent form of divisive and socially counter-productive class warfare themselves
well they like the class system but they dont like to mention it
if no one talks about it it wont be so obvious that they benefit so much from it
yes, especially when you mention the gap between teh rich and the poor to tories
they who pretend to have these values, and yet will perpetually fall short of them
well its unpleasant to be reminded of your own decadent lifestyle and the cost to others
they just go on about them being obsessed with classes when everyone's middle class really
to realise your wealth can only ever be at the deprivement of someone else
aspirationalism painted everyone as middle class
'now everyone can reach for these values (but some people will be members of various randomly joined sets - by birth - and therefore have distinct advantages)
in capitalist society that's definitely true, but increasing standards of living doesn't necesarily have to entail lowers others'
not naturally determined, even, most of the time
no not at all
our standard of living has gone up largely in response to better science
aspirationalism basically is just encouraging people to not give a shit if they see others in genuine hardship
in fact solely as far as i can see
yeah it says thats a good thing to do
as a person
in some ways yes, though it hasn't lead to us having to work for less time like science and advances in technology should do
no it just gave us better stuff
all it's done is make people work harder, output more for the same or less pay
we could have less stuff and work less
yeah pay hasnt changed
and given us widescreen tvs
yup
stuff
the point of aspirationalism is to sell us the idea of excess work
stuff but not actually improved our lives interms of working conditions, society, culture, education, health etc.
um
no but thats largely because of govt spending
i duno it maybe has a bit
people are on the whole getting more education
and the internet allows for better education
and freedom of expression
its no cheaper than pens and paper
but its maybe easier
in some respects
science has definitely improved health
not necessarily its distribution though
which is a govt spending/taxation issue
science is also controlled by private companies and is restricted to what can make a profit
not entirely, but sadly increasingly
therefore things like cure for aids and orther deiseases prevalent in impoverished regions get ignored
but thats always been the case i guess
used to be kings employed scientist, now its the new landed gentry and the govt, to a lesser extent
always in teh era of capitalism at least
hmm
capitalism coincided with the rise of science tho
the move away from feudalism
seeing that has enabled the development of the pharceutical industry
exactly
capitalism is an expression of a new class controlling this advance in science and productive forces
or did it allow for it?
all that stuff happened together
in britain and europe
capitalism, democracy and science
out of feudalism, monarchy and religion
i dunno if there's relaly a difference to be honest
between whether it's an expression or allowed for it
sure there is
o i see
ok
we need something new anyway
tories always want to go backwards
the opportunity arose and what happened was an expression of it
yes
fuck religion, agriculture and powerful executives
agriculture has to exist though
or we'll starve
i'm sure people would be more inclined if it wasn't a poorly paid, socially derised industry
relatively
clearly
how can you say the class system doesnt exist when some people earn £10k and others earn £1.2 billion as a year end bonus
ffs
you're living in the past obsessed with classes
can't you see the weath trickling down before your eyes?
wealth*
i see widescreen tvs trickling down
haha
when the rich are tired of the technology they let us have ot
it
i only thought tories believed in teh trickle down effect because people kept chucking coins at them
lol
its like the thing about charity
like charity is best, cos thats an act you choose to commit
bullshit
its an excuse for some people to be way richer to others
than, to, what difference does it make?
it does fuck all to address why people starve, are homeless, are subjected to abuse, turn to drugs etc.
and just sooths conscience of the rich
as the old adage goes, "when i gave food to the starving i was called a saint. when i asked why they starving, i was called a communist"
exactly
lol
thats beautiful
clearly not my words
but it perfectly highlights the hypocrisy of charity
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